Apparently. Malaysia. 1 in 3 people are diabetic. Out of the 1 in 3 who are diabetic. Apparently another one out of the three do not know their diabetic. Okay. Right. So how do you find this out?

Hello, everyone, and welcome back to InsuredSpeaks. This is a series where we bring together experts across the healthcare and insurance industry to have real conversations about something that affects all of us in very personal ways, health insurance. I'm Shankari, co-founder of InsuredSpeaks and your host today. If you are new here, InsuredSpeaks is a review and rating platform where people can share their insurance claim experiences and rate their health insurance providers. We started InsuredSpeaks as an initiative to increase transparency around health insurance claims. We wanted to hear other people's stories and create an informed community on claim experiences. And in many ways, that intention connects directly to today's conversation. Just like how. Intro speaks. Begin by listening to people and learning from their experiences. Today's guest has built his work around one powerful truth that healthcare works best when patients are not just treated, but truly hurt.

In today's episode, Listening to Patients, the story behind Vital Signs Asia. We are honored to be joined by Mr. Manvir Victor. Mr. Manvir is a globally recognized patient advocate, healthcare communication strategist and transformation consultant. He serves on the Malaysia National Patient Safety Council and holds an international presence as a board member of the World Health Organization Global Advisory Advisory Group on Patient and Family Communications. Additionally, he contributes to global discussions on healthcare through his role on the British Medical Journals Patient Advocacy Panel. Mr. Manvirl, thank you so much for being here today.

Could you tell us a bit about yourself?

Well, I started on this journey as a patient in 2001 when I was diagnosed with end stage renal failure. It was done by the worst kind of doctor. I mean, it was very callous and, you know, very rude in the way he diagnosed me, and I was in shock when I was diagnosed. And I walked out. I called another friend who was a doctor, got another referral, saw another doctor, a very kind doctor, the same two nephrologist, but totally different, you know.

So it was the second doctor that took me under his wing, really explained to me what was going on with my body, what was happening. And it's because of that second doctor and doctors like that that I do what I do today as a patient advocate. I was on dialysis for ten years, and then in 2012, I had a transplant right here in Malaysia. And after I did my transplant, I realized that at that point when I was doing my transplant, I didn't know that Malaysia had been doing it for 40 years before that. So there was this there was a lack of information, right? and so after I did my transplant, I worked with my hospital, worked by my doctors to promote transplantation. So what I would do essentially was speak to the next mission. Who was getting get his transplant. You know, the person who's going to do his transplant next week. So they would send me to go and have that conversation with him. So when I when I started doing that and I'll come back to the doctor and say, should I talk about this? Should I talk about that? What, what how do I answer this question? And so on.

And from there, the journey of advocacy talk, started. And then when W.H.O. came into Malaysia, was looking for patients to train. I became the first batch of patients that they trained. After that, they set up a committee, and the committee decided that I should be the chairman, for patients, for patient safety in Malaysia. And because of that, I was suddenly thrust in, in the national boards and Malaysian Society of Quality and Health. I'm on the board. I'm still on the board. So I started learning more about healthcare. Right. Understanding the regulations, the why, the what they do, how they do it, and so on. And, from there, I with the British Medical Journal, they saw me. And being a person from the media, I could speak, I could understand things. I am able to relate things. I started speaking internationally when I started speaking internationally. I'm a very curious person. I go to a country, I'm sitting down there, I go to that hospital, I speak to this doctor.

Why? How does your system work? How does this work? How does that work? All those things, you know. So I and I find that those doctors over there open with me and say, okay, come, come, come, come to my hospital. You'll see how the admission process is, how this process is, how that process is. So. Oh, fantastic. So because of my curiosity, it opened a lot of doors. So I started going to more countries and speaking in other countries. And then when I come back to Malaysia, I find. Sometimes the doors are closed in Malaysia because it's our. Our thought process is like, no, we can't let people in. Right. So now when I started on that journey as a patient advocate I used to love the word patient. Right. And in other countries they use the word consumer. They use the words purchaser of healthcare, user of healthcare. And I thought no, no, no, no, we must be patient.

We must be patient. I now realize that having that mindset of only being a patient is very narrow sometimes, because the doctors look at you and the healthcare professionals happen to look at you and say, you are my patient, I'm going to give you healthcare. You go away happy. What happens is this is a mistake. You still go away happy. But that's not what we want to do, right? So when we are a user of healthcare, it suddenly opens up a broader spectrum because as a user of healthcare, you can be a lawyer. You can be a doctor. You can be an astronaut. So suddenly they start looking at you and saying, oh, okay, you are a user. You are a voter. You are a tax payer. Yes, you are still in healthcare as a patient. Yeah, but that is not you in its hole. You understand? Because sometimes they look at us and say your patient 24 hours of the day, you are patient. No, I'm a patient one hour a day, 12 hours a day.

I'm a lawyer. Yes. You know, or 15 hours a day. I can be an astronaut, whatever it is. So suddenly it broadens their mind to treating the person, not the illness. Yes. You understand? So I'm a kidney transplant patient. I've also got a heart issue because of being on transplant or on dialysis for many years. So I'm a heart patient, right? But I'm also an active person who goes out doing things. And also the doctors look at me and say, you're the sum of that person and that is what we want healthcare to look at this and say, this is a person. This is for 24 hours. This is a person. He's sick. He's got an illness. But the illness does not define the person.

Right. You understand that, right? So the illness doesn't define the person. So having the word user, consumer of healthcare or person centered care that makes health care look at it and say, I need to help treat this entire person.

And this person has likes and dislikes and wants and and so on. So how do you cater to that? Because every other industry in the world caters to that. Yes. If you look like what you all do with insurance. Insurance before. I mean, I'm talking about 30, 40, 50 years ago. We'll just insure you for your life. Then they decided to do medical and then. Oh, okay. If you have a knee problem. Yeah, but you can live without a knee. You can. You can continue to live if you have a knee problem. Right. But now knee replacement is inside. All these things are there because it's the person that wants to be covered, right? So that's important for us to realize that the person is important. So that's why I don't really use the word patient a lot. I mean, I am patient about safety. Yes. But you look at the person, the consumer, the user. And I feel that being a person in the media, it's important that when you are talking, depending on who the audience you're talking to is, I talk to policymakers, ministers or people in government, and I remind them, I'm a voter, I'm a taxpayer.

Then they start to look at me differently from a patient.

I think that's what we all want to.

I mean changing the perspective on how they want to look at things that actually changes the narrative as well.

Exactly. Yeah. You're absolutely right about that. Yeah.

That you have come all the way here and right now talking to us. Thank you for sharing your story. Thank you. He is also the founder of Vital Signs Asia. Yeah. Could you share what Vital Signs are all about? What sparked the journey to create us? To create it.

So Vital Signs was. It was a journey. Because if you ask me five years ago, would I have started it? I didn't even think of it, but it was actually the journey that I was on, you know, after my transplantation, realizing that my doctors work very hard, but they work hard in the hospital, right? And they don't communicate outside the clinics because they go home.

They have a life, right? So they don't think or spend time or effort on communication, because if you are sitting in front of them, they are brilliant, but they can't talk to the 500 people in the clinic. Neither can they talk to the thousands of people outside. So I decided that I needed to be that voice. You know, it sort of happened gradually. Right. So Vital Signs Asia is a culmination of that idea that we need to talk to mass audiences.

One of the things that I like about this is the word healthcare. Are two words fused into one? Yes. It's health and care. Right. So now it can't work without each other. Because if you talk about just health it's just health.

Right. I don't care about you. Right. So when you put healthcare it means that the way that you take care of the people makes a difference. Yes. Now, Shankar, I ask you, I mean you've had people who are doctors in your life, you know, you've gone to doctors and you've seen doctors, whether it's a GP or a specialist, sir.

Do you really take into consideration where they study?

Not really. I look at what people usually refer to. Like they will someone will tell me this is a very good doctor. You should go for this. That. That's how I usually,

So how would you classify a good doctor versus a bad doctor? Would it be where he studied?

No. Is the positive, the stories that patients are saying. They say, oh, I recovered from this. His treatment was good. When I hear this, Oh, we should go here. That's how.

yeah, that is exactly so. It's the human touch. It's the care part. Yes, it's the care part. Right. So the initial thing that interests me about health care is this thought. Right? It runs through my mind. The Ministry of Defense, in any country in the world, provides you with an army to protect the country. Yes, right. The Ministry of Transport.

Their job is to build highways and connections and have more airports and train lines to connect people so that they're traveling. Transport. Right. The ministries of health in a lot of countries take care of you when you end up in a hospital.

So that's sick care. That's not healthcare. You're not promoting the positive. You're my job is negative. So I'm basically betting on the fact that all the things that I've done have failed. You end up in hospital.

So health care is how do you treat people before they become there? So, for instance, in some countries in the world, they are very adept at telling people to be healthy. Now there's something called a blue zone city. If you Google that, it's very interesting. There are five blue zone cities. Cities in the world. Okinawa and Japan are one. You Google the rest, right? The sixth blue zone city is Singapore. It is an engineered city because it's a small city state.

They can't have many cars, so they built a fantastic rail system now, which means that you have to walk now because you walk, you're healthier. And so they make sure that there are enough parks around. So there's enough green. So you're breathing cleaner air. So all these things help the city of Singapore become a blue zone city, which is engineered because it was forced into the design of the space. Now. A blue zone city is a place where people live the longest. Most people live the longest. The highest number of.

Long. Longest. And I do a little bit of work in Singapore. And the doctors amazingly tell me the story that every week they will see 1 or 2 patients over the age of 90 who will walk to the hospital. How many people at the age of 90 do we know that can work, that need to go through a train system that do all these things, and Singapore does it in a way that they're making sure that this area where retirement villages are, they have parks there and the parks have benches every 2 to 300m because older people can walk.

So if you think that I'm walking in, the next branch is one kilometer away, I'm not going to go for a walk. But if there's one every 200m, you will go for a walk. So this is the engineering of these things that make it possible for people to be healthier because you want people to walk.

Is engineering a lifestyle actually?

Absolutely. So this is the core of what we are trying to do with Vital Signs is we are trying to share all these ideas. And, you know, we in Malaysia, we are rich in a lot of things. And we look at all these ideas, we need to pick pockets of these ideas and say, hey, let's Malaysianize this idea, or let's do that, let's take all these things and build this. Because at the end of the day, I know that being a person who was ill for ten years, I spent close to about a million ringgit on dialysis. You know, going for dialysis costs me about 4000 ringgit a month.

So do the math right? And then there was medication that I had to take because of it. And, you know, other tests and, you know, other operations that I needed to go through because I was on dialysis. So all this you look at that, my loss of earnings, I would say that between the age of 35 to 45, when people are the most, you know, progressive, you know, you earn the highest salary, you go. I was ill between 35 to 45, so I probably lost 2 to $3 million in salaries now. That's me. One person. There are 55,000 people on dialysis today. What's the math on that? What's the math on that now? Maybe I'm taking three. 4 million is a lot. Let's say it's even $1 million. $1 million? There's 55 people, 55,000 of these people. So who loses his money? The government of Malaysia loses his money, the country loses his money. So there is this thought process that goes in Singapore, in Spain.

In England, in Ireland, a lot of the countries where they look at it and say, you've got an illness that I can solve, this illness, I can cure you of this illness through transplantation, you can go back to work, you can earn a salary, you can pay a tax. Now, since I've had my transplant in 2012, I go back to work. I am able to earn a salary and pay a tax. Now it's not only taxed, but the salaries that I earn allows me to buy a house, buy a car, do all these things. Doesn't that add into the grid?

Right. So can you imagine? There are obviously illnesses in people who have a sickness and it takes away, you know, so you know you're giving them a handout and that's absolutely deserved. But they are also illnesses that you can literally cure for a time being at least, and you push it so the person goes back to work and is able to contribute back into society in a positive way.

Yes, in a way, looking at the bigger picture, like, like from the individual point of view. But if the government started looking at the bigger, the bigger role that you're actually paying in, society could change a lot of things actually. Okay. That's a very interesting point. Okay. We understand that you are also a World Health Organization patient advocate. Yes. Okay. So what does patient advocacy actually mean? And how is this different from the broader health advocacy that we are quite familiar with?

Okay. So patient advocacy is coming back to patient rights. Family rights, caregiver rights. understanding that in healthcare, just like in any other industry, when you buy your consumer, you buy a car, you have rights. So if the car fails on you, you have rights. You understand? So now in health care. They are obviously providing you a service, a facility. This is a highly regulated, very, very regulated system in industry. Right. But mistakes happen, right.

So where do the patients come in? How do they find out what their rights are. So the W.H.O. put together the patient advocacy group. And the training is merely because in every hospital there is something called a hospital board. Now the hospital board is comprised of the CEO or the person in charge, the pick of the hospital, maybe the hospital director, the, and the key doctors. They also want patients there because the patients are the users.

The end users?

Yes, the end users of the hospital. So now you just can't go and pluck 3 or 4 flowers and put them on the board. They have no clue. So what we do is we train the patients, let them understand that confidentiality is absolutely key when you're sitting down. I can't go out and say, hey, you know, this fella had this problem, that fella had this problem and named them know this confidentiality, right? So I understand the strength of confidentiality. Number two, I understand that hospitals are built with tight regulations. There's a lot of regulations. Right. And there's confidentiality, there's regulations. Then there's each specialisation specialist, they have a role. How do they do that? So essentially this hospital board is where problems come up at board level. So you know if for instance a patient falls in hospital or there was a wrong medication error, it comes up to this board. And then they do something called a root cause analysis RCA to find out what was where this whole system failed? Let's be honest, our doctors, our nurses, everyone is top class. Yeah, but you're in a business that is 24 over seven every single day, 365 days a year. You go to any emergency. There is no empty space. Yes. It's not empty. So. And everyone is coming in critical. It's been absolutely critical. So you know obviously mistakes can happen. There can be gaps. So the RCA is supposed to find out how these gaps are. And as they do that it's great to have the patience.

They're sitting down and understanding this whole scenario. And from the patient's point of view I understand you did right, doctor. You did the right thing, nurse. You did the right thing. But within that there was a gap. You did not explain to the patient what they were supposed to do. Therefore, the patient was not compliant or the patient. For instance, the patient just falls off the bed. Whose fault is it? You can't blame the patient, can you?

Right. So the nurse didn't put up the barrier, but the doctor is responsible. So we, as a patient sitting down at the board, understand? Okay. This is the issue, okay? We can't save that person who fell off the bed. But how do we save the next one? So understanding that maybe we need a sign there or not in a sign, but someone has to take it and say, okay, I have ticked this and I said, yes, the barrier is up.

Just a simple explanation. Please make sure that the barrier is up because you have a risk of falling. Just saying yes that would make all the difference or telling to the Guardian also.

Especially the Guardian, because unfortunately Malaysia has world class doctors. I will tell you that right now, world class nurses where we lack sometimes is now communication. And I will give you an example of this. I have been in many hospitals in this country, private and public, and I've lived overseas and I've worked overseas. So when I lived and I worked in the UK and I needed to do a biopsy, the doctor knocked on my door. He says, excuse me, can I come in? He walks in and he says, are you Mr. Manuel? Yes, my name is so-and-so. I'm the surgeon. I'm about to do your biopsy. Can I come and talk to you? I said okay, fine. So he walks in. He sits down here and says, okay, you are going to undergo a biopsy.

Do you know what it is? Have you got any questions? Can I explain it to you now? Him. That's him. I take that and I put it there in a box for you. Now, in Malaysia, we've got fantastic doctors, right? They will just waltz into my room, will not introduce themselves and say, okay, you are going for this procedure. Okay. Are you ready? And I'm like, yeah, if I've got a question for you, can I ask you a question? Yeah. First of all, what is your name? And they will say why. No, I said, how am I going to identify you later? One Chinese doctor, one Malay doctor, one one, one Indian girl walked into my room. Is there how you want me to describe you? No, no, no. Then tell me your name. Because essentially, healthcare cannot promise you an outcome. I mean, I'm sure you've had family members who have been in hospital and doctors take their time to do their best.

And I know they do. They cannot guarantee an outcome. What we want is the guarantee that you will do your best for me or my loved one. That means this trust. There has to be trust. How do you trust a person if you don't know who they are?

That's the basic, fundamental thing. And also care. That's just showing care. Like okay I would like to talk to you about it. Yes. It's just the experience in itself.

So our patient advocacy is always talking about the soft skills. And here in Malaysia they use it as soft skills. It is actually an essential skill. If I don't walk into the room and say who my name is to you, your son. I'm assuming you already know who I am. I always walk into a room and I introduce myself to people. I have a weird sounding name, so I have to explain myself and I go in and I say, hi, my name is madman. So even if people don't know who I am, I'll walk in there and introduce myself because that is my default setting.

Sometimes healthcare, their default setting is not to tell you who they are. So at that point they go like, how am I supposed to trust you with my father's life or my life? I don't even know who you are. I don't know your name. And when I'm asking you. Excuse me, what is your name? Why? You understand? So they are already on the defensive, and I'm like, no, I'm not. I'm not asking to complain, but I'm just asking what's your name? So when I tell them, I am going to describe you as the Chinese guy who walked into my room, or the Chinese.

And you're entrusting your body to him like, you know, to do the best possible way.

Yeah. So I think patient advocacy is all about us trying to assert our rights. We're not trying to lump it on you, but we are trying to assert our rights and say, hey, look at me as a human being. Look at me as a human being.

Because any one of us, when we walk into a room, we will tell people who we are, hey, hey, so-and-so, you know, introduce ourselves around. And this is where I find that in Malaysia we lack that when we walk into a room, especially with healthcare. So I notice doctors who come in and introduce themselves to me and I'm like, okay, can I get your phone number? Because you are a positive model. You're a positive model, right? And this is what we want to do is affirm those positive models and talk about it. So everybody else is saying, hey, like you were just saying this now the referrals right, of other doctors or no nurses, It's not about where they studied. It's not about the shoes or whatever they were wearing or nothing. You know, it's the fact that they come across as very confident. They're talking to you as a human being. They look you in your eyes and say, “okay, Shankari, this is your condition.

This is what we're going to do. Are you okay with this?” And then you will say, “this doctor is a good doctor.”

What a kind doctor.

Exactly. This is a doctor. So this is where people over the years will come and say, oh, that doctor is good. And I go like, oh, I'm sitting now. Why do you say the doctor is good? Yeah. And then they tell me, oh, he listened to me. He asked me this. He asked me that nobody knows where you studied, whether you studied in Harvard or Oxford. Nobody cares. It's how you come across as a human being, which is the care element of health care. That is why we choose and we say that person is a good doctor. And so it's difficult for an institution, hospital, a hospital, right. It's an inanimate object. It's just there. How does the hospital put that personality out there? You know, they're saying, oh, you come to me.

I got my MRI, I got my CT scan, I got all these great things. Those are things where people.

Have to ask, can anyone become patient advocates?

Yes, anyone can become a patient advocate, a family advocate patient. We are training tons and tons of people. We are waiting for people who either have been patients or know I always help. I always joke when I walk into a conference and I ask people, how many people here are patients? And three people put up their hands and I go like, oh my God, this is the healthiest room in the world. Nobody's had the flu. Nobody's broken a bone. No woman here has ever given birth. Oh, then I ask the question again. How many are patients then? Are you understand? So that's us as a person. But you don't identify as a patient, do you know? Yeah. Because you were patient for that one moment and then you came back. But your experience there is important.

It's a positive experience that we need. And I think about 90 to 95% of the time it's really good experiences. How do we make that the norm by learning that sometimes there is a gap. Mistakes happen. So when the mistakes happen, we go like, oh, okay. We can't cover it up. We need to own it, right? The mistakes happen and we go like, okay, how do we improve this? Okay, okay. We have to cut this. Because when mistakes happen, people lose a limb. People lose a loved one. So the consequences are dire. Yes. That's why I know the number of lawsuits are going up in health care. And it's important for us to realize that they happen because of mistakes. We're not trying to cover up anything, but we have to own it and look at it. The industry needs to own it and look at it and say, how do we move forward? How do we get people? Because at the core of this, you're not guaranteeing outcomes.

You are guaranteeing the fact that trust. Come to my shop, my hospital, my clinic. I will do my best for you. And I will honestly tell you, listen, this person has this inoperable tumor of this. We can do this. And then the person will look at it and more. More often than not, they will. I believe you, but if you're very careless in the way that you pretend.

Even giving the information can make life and death different, the way they take the information, if you make it sound, it's something that we can overcome and all. They will take it in a positive manner as well. It's a big thing actually.

That first doctor I was telling you. Yes, when he first diagnosed me, you know, I came and sat down in front of him. He didn't even look at me in my face. Oh, he he just looked at my, my results and said, “man, why are your creatinine is very high? You need to be on dialysis next week. You see that machine over there? You have to be on that machine.” I'm sitting here. He never looked at me in my face. And then he said, “okay, I'm going to leave you.” My nurse. He got up and walked off.

I'm here because of him, but more because of the second Doctor, the third Doctor, the fourth Doctor. The subsequent doctors that I met were brilliant and excellent. And I said that that one doctor, that first doctor had spoiled me. You know, I looked at it and said, everybody else doesn't need to be like that. Yes, but the and I in it in it's very troubling to me that first doctor when he first became a doctor and he's a very aged man now. He's probably in his 80s or something like that. When he first became a doctor, did he want to become that kind of a doctor? I don't think so. But eventually he became that doctor.

So I look at it as a system failure.

I look at it from my point of view and say, why did the system allow him to get to that point? It's because those days when he saw people as a patient, nobody, nobody told him anything to his face. Patient. No doctors were God. Yeah. Now doctors are no longer gods. So the human. Just like any one of us. So that's the thing that we need to understand: how do we get on to this? How do we, as patients build a rapport with the doctors and say, listen, we also have a point of view. We are consumers. We use your hospital. We come to your service. Why can't you smile and talk to me like I'm a human being?

Okay. Just now you're talking about preventive care? Yes. Okay. So, with the start of the new year, we saw vital signs for activating the on ground health screening process.

And one of your first partnerships was with the National Cancer Society. Could you tell us more about that?

Okay. My pet thing that I want to do is help people have more screening. Now, I was never screened because, you know, I was 34, 35 years old. If I had been screened 2 or 3 years before, I probably would have found out that I had something wrong with my kidneys, and it could have been reversed then, but it didn't because I was never screened. And this is in the late 90s, 2000. Now you have the capability of screening. Now, screenings are no longer in hospitals. Last time, if you need to do a screen, you have to get into a hospital and do a screening. So while we are working with the National Cancer Society, Malaysia is because we are bringing the screening to you. Okay. Where are you? Are you in some Balai Raya? Something like that. So we can bring the buses. We can bring all the screening to your run, to your family day, to your company.

We want to do screening. So basically we come in, we look at your staff 18 to 65. We do a general screening and tell them whether the cholesterol is high, whether they are diabetic, pre-diabetic, apparently Malaysia 1 in 3 people are diabetic out of the 1 in 3 who are diabetic, Apparently another one out of the three don't know they're diabetic. Okay, right. So how do you find this out? How do you know whether your cholesterol is you need to do screening? There are some countries in the world where there is a yearly screening is mandatory, like South Korea, South Korea. In South Korea, they do mandatory screening on a yearly basis. So they are able to do health care. Because I can tell you upfront, my friend, your sugar is a bit high. You have to watch all that poverty and all those things. You have to watch it. You have to exercise. Maybe you're obese, maybe you have to change your diet. So these are all lifestyle factors.

You see cholesterol, sugar all these things are called lifestyle. So basically it's telling you, hey, you are on the borderline of this. Your borderline or that borderline or this your Wisla. You need to lose weight. So at least the person who is being screened is now aware, oh my cholesterol is a bit high. What should I do? I should.

Do. They can take the necessary actions.

Take those actions to continue to be healthy. Right. So that is what has been missing. And so this is the the partnership that we're working with National Cancer Society to roll this out nationwide. My goal for Vital Signs is to do 5000 screenings this year. Right. So we did one. We got 50 people. So it was one weekend that we did. And now we want to take it on the road. We're going to go all around Malaysia. We want to do this. So I'm looking for either organizations or even communities that want to do it. And they say, okay, listen, we want to do the screening.

They get in touch with us. We facilitate that for the National Cancer Society. And by way of doing that, we have a lung health initiative, which is the world's first insurance policy for lung health. Oh, okay. Right. It's called lung health. Lung shield. Lung lung shield. So what it does is for a price of 179 ringgit. Now we've got a promo. It's down to 129 for 129 ringgit. You go into your GP clinic and you get tested. You do some minor blood test, but you do a chest X-ray. Now, if your chest X-ray picks up an anomaly, you have to go and do diagnostics, right? So what happens is the diagnostics are all free because you've bought that insurance policy.

So 129 ringgit. You do all the tests. You go to the GP and then GP says my friend, something's wrong with your lung. Just go and do this test. So you have to go and do the CT, low density and all those things.

It costs RM3,000. But because you bought this policy, now it's free. You just walk in to this hospital. You get it done so you can walk into the hospital and get it done. Now let us say in the worst case scenario, the person buys 129 ringgit. He does the test. There is an anomaly there. Suspicions there. So he walks into the hospital. He shows the insurance card. He does his lotto city. He can do it tomorrow. Straight away. Tomorrow. Private hospital. Private hospital. He goes in. He goes and does it. Now, from the lotto city, he finds out. This is definitely something there. You need to do a biopsy that costs another 2 or RM3000, right? It's already taken care of by the insurance. So you get that done. So. Worst case scenario, he goes in. Test one. I failed. Something's wrong. Test two failed. It says you got cancer. Stage one. What do you do now? I have no insurance.

You take that diagnostic result and you walk into a government hospital. You walk into a government hospital and say, I did tests one, two, three failed. They have come up. This is the diagnosis that I have got. Stage one cancer. They will start you on, chemotherapy or whatever. Therapy. Within the next 48 hours. You save your life. That's the worst case scenario. Best case scenario. No issues at all. You pay 129 ringgit. You got a clean bill out. You walk out there. Peace of mind. You know you are fine right now. In between of that, if, let's say you have an insurance policy. Your insurance policy does not cover diagnostic tests. Yes. Right. So now your diagnostic test in between has been covered because you bought this thing for lung shield 429 ringgit. So lung shield the minute you got stage one or whatever, then you take this diagnostic result and go to your private hospital because you have an insurance policy and start your treatment. Okay.

So either way you get treated, whether you have no insurance or you have your own insurance, right. Your diagnosis is covered. So what we are trying to do is save people's lives at the end of the day. But the only way we can do that is to go to the screening. And today, with technology, with all these handheld devices. I don't have to wait for you to come to me. I can come to you. That is where we are going with this. The advantage of that is the positive side of something negative. You know why all these handheld devices were created? Because of the refugee crisis everywhere in the world.

I see. Okay. That's where it started.

That's where it started. So now we've got devices to come to you.

Okay. talking about health screening. Most Malaysians actually fear it because there's this mindset that it's better to not know if you're ill because they don't want to face the treatment cost, like right now. So in your opinion, how can we shift this mindset? We know health screening is important, but there's this fear.

Better not no life. I mean, I'm okay. What now? So there's a certain mindset around this.

I mean, I know even with young people, we face this, like, talking to younger people and trying to tell them, come and do your screening. You know, there's so many bad habits today. You know, whether you're drinking a lot of sugar, soda, smoking, vaping, there's 101 things and then you haven't even started talking about our food yet. Yes, our food is extremely delicious and available everywhere. Yeah. Which is a bad thing sometimes, right? So. And we are lazy. We don't exercise enough. We don't do these things enough. So hence we are the most obese country in Southeast Asia or Asia, if not the world. Right. So how do we get people on this? Find out what your health care is. Where are you at if you're 25? Do a test once a year on your birthday. Do it for yourself.

I know you're buying cake. You're buying all these things. I'm not saying don't buy that. Don't have the cake. Don't buy the watch. Apple phone. Whatever you want to do. Why don't you do a screening? This is for you.

Health ownership.

Health ownership. So at least you find, oh, my cholesterol is a bit high. Okay, so the next time I go out. No, this. No, that. No, that. Bring my cholesterol down. So if you think that my health is fine until the day it's not. Then when it's not, it gets very expensive. Very very expensive. Because I know you think that. Hey, I'm paying this money to go and see this doctor. I'm doing all these things. Don't you send your car for a service? Yes you do. Yet when your car breaks down, you can go and buy another one. Can you do that for your body? No, it's the only one you own. So I'm just telling you, just go in for a service.

Manvir Victor 0:40:05 Not even anything. Just go and find out if everything is fine or not. Just go and do that one time. And now we've brought it down. That's screening for under 200 ringgit. It's under 200 ringgit a year. Just spend that money, invest money in your own health so that you are telling yourself I am fine or I'm not. I should watch my sugar. I should watch my cholesterol. Those are the things I think that's the take home message. You know.

If the mandate, if the government mandates health screening also, that could make all the difference.

I know, you see, the problem is with the government mandating it. It's a long and tedious process. Everyone will disagree with it.

People despite knowing all the benefits that come with it.

Yeah. Why can't we do it on our own? We have our own choice. I mean, if you see many, the government has many screening plans, right? It's absolutely free as well.

Yeah. Pick up if 40 people skipped it.

Why? So it's free. What? It's absolutely free. You don't have to pay any money. No, I don't want to do it. Why? Why do you think ignorance is bliss? I will tell you as a patient. And I just gave you my explanation of how much money. That's just money. Not pain, not suffering, not blood. Not. Not almost dying. Three times. Then when I. When I put it to you in human context, I almost died three times. My nurses had to slap me and tell me. Don't. Don't close your eyes. My blood pressure was 60/40. So being in that condition and having weeks to recover from that. Do you want that to happen to you? No, I'm just asking you to go for a screening. It's better to know now what you are going to go through and take preventative measures. That's why it's called a preventative screen.

Okay. Okay. You're also the founding chairman of patients for Safety Malaysia. Yeah. Could you tell us more about this initiative?

So patient safety Malaysia was set up when our committee met.

And you know, all of us got trained, about 12 to 13 of us got trained. And then they said, we need to set up a committee. That's when they made me, the chairman of the founding team, that set it up. And basically, we are the core people who want to go out and train other patient advocates. So the key goal is to have 2 to 3 patient advocates in every visitor board, in every hospital in this country, okay, private or public. So can you imagine that you have 3 or 4 patient advocates in a board? I'll give you an example. In other countries, in European countries and even in Australia, in some places, when they have a budget to build a hospital and they're going to spend 100 million to 200, whatever amount, a million millions they're going to spend, they will call the community or the patients first and say, we're going to build a hospital. What do you want it to be like? You know, what kind of chairs? You know, what kind of.

Consumer centric.

Consumer centric, the clinical part of it, the OT. They know the doctors say I need 40s. I need it like this. I need it like that. And they'll build there. But you see, we are the patients. We sit on these chairs for 4 hours or 5 hours to see the doctor. Don't you think we know? We need to know what kind of chairs we have. Yes. And you know, you've been to government hospitals and private hospitals. Which one has more comfortable chairs? Why? You understand. So the thought process put into this, they make it there. And, you know, helping people understand that today with the digitized voice I will how can I make my bookings for my doctor? Why can I prepay for my meeting, meeting a doctor? I mean, we all nowadays prepay to book restaurants, right?

We have appointments. We book a restaurant at 8:00. We have to prepay half of it, or we have to give a deposit.

Why can't we do the same when we see a doctor? Then we'll be on time, won't we? So these facilities are now in our hands. The hospital facilities have to start thinking from a consumer perspective and say, how do we get more patients in here? How do we make them on time? How do we make them come in, see us and leave a good patient journey? Yes, because coming into a hospital is not a pleasant journey.

Yeah. You know, we are fearful. Are we worried? Then we have to look for a parking space. Then we have to go up the lift. We have to register. So everything makes us already negative? Yes. And then we'll start finding formulas. Oh, see, I had to do this. Oh. Bathroom. Not clean. Because it's not a pleasurable journey for us.

Going to a shopping mall is. So how do we make certain aspects of it easier for us. Why can I book my clinic appointment online? Why can't I prepay a deposit for it? So then you are sure that I'll be on time? Yeah, right.

So they are. They are modes and things that we as patients turn around and tell households, you all can do this, you can make it worth it.

There's so many aspects to look at when a patient goes, is this not just the patient? The family members around will also be going on the same journey as well. And the patient has to think of the caregivers as well. Are they doing okay? So there's just so many roles. In the end, it's not just a patient cap as you're saying. Yes. So it's actually a lot of aspects to look into. Hopefully a lot of people will become patient advocates. Yes. And talk more about the experience as well. Okay. Now we are coming to the end of our session. What is the one message you would like to leave with our audience who is watching and listening to this podcast?

I think it's important for you to own your own health. Like I was saying, you know, you can buy another car. Buy another watch.

Why? When it's spoiled but your body. You can't take care of what you have. Find out. Prevent your conditions from getting worse. And our tagline on vital signs Asia is its. We are your hub to better health, whatever that better means to you. So connect with us. Find out when you can do your screening, but be more aware about your rights and your body. You've only got one value.

Thank you so much, Mr. Manvir, for your insights today. It's very inspiring to have you with us, and we hope our viewers learn something about patient advocacy and the rights that they actually have. Stay tuned for more upcoming episodes in our series InsuredSpeaks. Thank you.