Around 60% of Malaysians are still uninsured. Yes. And the 40% who are are underinsured. That forced me to ask if insurance is meant to protect families. Why is it failing so many?

Hello everyone and welcome to InsuredSpeaks. I'm Shankari, co-founder of InsuredSpeaks and your host. Today, in this podcast series, we bring together experts across the healthcare and insurance industry to have real and open conversations. But one thing that actually affects all of us, health insurance. For those of you who are joining us for the very first time, here is a quick introduction about InsuredSpeaks. We are a Malaysian startup focused on making health insurance clearer and more transparent through our review and rating platform. So if you have claim experience you would like to share with us, we invite you to visit our website through the link below and be part of the conversation. In today's episode Rethinking Insurance Through Social Takaful, we are honoured to be joined by Mr. Ravinder Singh. Mr. Ravinder is a reinsurance specialist with over 31 years of experience, having worked in London, Amsterdam, Zurich, Singapore and Malaysia.

Having worked across actuarial, reinsurance, product design and commercial leadership roles, he brings a rare end to end understanding of how insurance products are priced, structured and distributed. Currently, he is also the co-founder of Acme Tech and insured tech startup from Malaysia and the President of Malaysia Tower Running Association, Mr. Ravinder, thank you so much for being here today.

So let's get into it. Your slogan is rethinking insurance. Having spent over 30 years in the insurance industry across multiple countries. What made you rethink insurance?

As you said, after more than 30 years in the insurance industry across multiple countries, I realized something uncomfortable. Despite nearly 120 years of industry presence in Malaysia. Around 60% of Malaysians are still uninsured.

And the 40% who are underinsured. That forced me to ask if insurance is meant to protect families. Why is it failing so many? The answer wasn't about people being irresponsible. It was about complexity, high costs, and a system built more around distribution than protection. That's when I knew insurance didn't just need a new product. It needed a new mindset. And that's where rethinking insurance came.

Okay. What do you think led to the insurance turning into what it is today?

Insurance gradually became sales driven rather than protection driven. Yes, products got more complex. Commissions became embedded and customers were pushed towards coverage they didn't fully understand. Over time, insurance shifted from being a social safety net to something that felt intimidating, expensive, and transactional.

Yes, especially if they use complex jargons to describe or this how the benefit works. People in the end, like confused with what they're actually paying for?

Yes. And if the purchaser is confused, how about the beneficiary who has not seen the policy and didn't go through the sale process? It became the people who actually claimed they hadn't seen it.

Yes, that's so true.

If it's confusing for the people who are facing the agents being explained and all of that, there's no chance. So I always say, before a company launches a new product, the journalist should sit down with the CEO and test the CEO whether he understands the product or not. And if the CEO doesn't understand they are not allowed to sell their product because it's too complicated. But unfortunately, It's not the current practice because of all of this. The spirit of insurance with mutual health got loss. So a major change needs to happen and is not happening currently. That's why I believe digital insurance, the whole process created by Bank Negara, is needed. And hopefully we'll change the game.

Okay. That's the way forward. Okay. Sometimes there is a high discrepancy between the medical bills of those with the medical card and sometimes those without one for the same illness treatment. What practical measures can we do to introduce, to reduce hospital overcharging and help control rising medical costs?

Three things that make a difference. I'm actually quite radical. I think the guarantee letter was the start of all the problems in medical insurance in Malaysia. It was done to make it easier for the customers, for the patients. But it became easier for the hospitals to overcharge.

Yes, because they got a blank cheque.

So really, that should be stopped. Then the question becomes. But many will not be able to afford to pay first. But the reality is, if you can't afford to pay part of the bill. Never mind the full bill. You shouldn't be going to a private hospital.

Yes, yes. That's true. Yeah.

So a private hospital is not for everybody. I mean, we talked about it before. My daughter, who has medical insurance, needed some emergency treatment. And I still chose public hospital. Public hospitals in Malaysia are exceptionally well.

So the services they provide are of the highest quality. And the staff, the doctors, the nurses are very dedicated. I hold it at such high records. I had medical treatment when I was in UK, when I was in Holland, when I was in Switzerland. And I can tell you, Malaysia is not only at par but better. So there's nothing wrong with public hospital. In fact, I have a lot of concerns about private hospital because currently diagnosis and treatment are done by the same doctor.

Yes.

So where's the check and balance?

In in public hospital, you will have a panel of doctors looking at the cases. Discussing it. So it is not only for improving the expertise, because when you are in discussion with fellow doctors, you know, you have different perspective and all that, but it's also the governance. When one doctor does everything and then later on, nobody is checking and going back and say, oh, why didn't.

What's there is that that's not happening in private hospital.

No one is questioning.

Nobody is questioning. So that's why I now have reservations to go to private hospital. Okay. And obviously the third thing is preventive care incentives that's missing. I believe when a patient goes to the GP and of course tells the problem they have and the GP treats it, the patient should not be allowed to leave the clinic until the doctor has talked about preventive care.

Okay, just touch the subject because only when that's happened over and over again. When people start to realize how important it is, you should ask the patient how the patient's eating, how much are they moving? How are they sleeping? What's your how? What's your stress level? How is work? How is family life?

This the curse?

The I mean, the other part of it which goes to wellness, preventive care. You know, are they eating well? At least that should start to be documented for every patient.

It will do two things. One, the doctor will start to see the other side. Okay. I mean, we all talk about, you know, food is medicine.

So you need to find out what medicine are they taking on? How are they eating? How are they sleeping? But that's not done. And the sad thing is doctors don't practice it.

Because they are overworking also.

Yeah, but I mean, overworking is one thing. Our Prime Minister. He has time to to exercise. So really, you need to do that. And when you do that, you set an example to the rest. Because it's not necessary to be one hour, two hours in the gym, sometimes just 20 minutes a day. Diligently doing something good is an investment for your future health.

Yes. Well, put. Yes. Okay. We know that the group of people who need insurance the most are the ones who are actually left out. Which type of coverage do you think every individual should have?

At minimum, everyone should have a basic life and personal accident cover. Okay. I put that even higher than medical insurance because medical insurance, you can go to public hospital.

There is a safety net.

In life insurance, there is no safety net. If you don't have life insurance. That's it. And life insurance not only will cover your funeral costs, but also more importantly for me is the extra cost that comes towards the last part of your life.

Many people in the last journey of their life, they are in hospital. They are adjustments they need to do to their life. And there is cost. Yes. And if this person is quite elderly, sometimes the families are also discussing who is paying for what and stuff like that. So if there is an insurance policy, at least that money can go to help the last journey cost that came into it. So for me life insurance is critical. Every citizen of Malaysia should have life insurance or takaful. Okay. And I hope one day I'm working towards this too. There is a national scheme. Okay. And the reason why a national scheme is important is that the people currently who don't have this are the ones who need it the most.

They're usually the breadwinners of the family.

And they are breadwinners of big families. So for me what is critical is a basic life or takaful cover with personal accident. And then obviously most people think medical insurance is an important one.

But I say medical insurance has been very challenging in Malaysia not only because of the medical inflation. So premiums increase every year because of medical insurance. Also the age every year, you know, older the price suddenly escalates very fast. An alternative policy is critical illness the beauty of a critical illness? It hasn't got the impact of inflation, so there is no short increase. The premiums could increase by age increase, but you are already aware of that. So for those who are worried about cancer or major heart treatment, especially if you have a family history, you must buy a critical illness policy. All those who fed some family members who had cancer, please buy a critical illness policy and you can adjust the sum insured to what you think the cost is going to be for whatever. Cancer. Okay. So it can be 200,000, 300,000, 500,000. You can purchase that even at this process where we're talking about it. And the government has a cap of 100,000 150,000. And there was some discussion about whether it's sufficient or not.

Just going by a critical illness policy.

Okay. For whatever you want to cover that gap, and you'll be fine. So then you're not fully dependent on your medical insurance policy. If the premium goes up, if it goes too high and you are in retirement and you think you can't pay. Don't worry. Your critical illness policy is some protection.

So that one will be usually paid out upon diagnosis. Yes, with Malaysia now having one of the highest obesity rates in the region, over 60% of Malaysians are overweight or obese and related diseases accounting for more than 70% of deaths. What implications does this have for the future of healthcare and insurance?

Yes, you are right. This is a warning sign. 60% of Malaysians overweight and obese. Actually 62%. And it's been going up all the way. And in fact, in almost every country in the world, the percentage of the citizens overweight or obese has been increasing. So the first goal is to stop the increase and then to start reducing it.

Okay. And the impact is of course 70% of deaths are from lifestyle diseases. If this continue, we are heading towards an unsustainable health cost crisis situation. Okay. So what will happen is insurance premiums will rise. The public health care budget will be strained and younger generations will face affordability issues even earlier. And really, the only solution is preventive care. Preventive care and not enough is being done on this in this area. Sadly, yes.

Okay. also just, talking about social takaful. I know you're working on social takaful. Would you like to explain to us a bit more on what that is and how it functions?

Okay, so social takaful is community based protection.

Delivered digitally, sponsored where possible, and kept intentionally simple. Okay. Okay. Instead of asking people to buy complex products upfront, we start by rewarding those who contribute to society. Blood donors, organ donors, athletes, young parents and university students. We give them basic protection. Okay.

Okay. From there, awareness goes, trust builds, and people voluntarily upgrade based on real understanding, not pressure. Okay. The current model is to educate somebody and then and then approach the topic of insurance or takaful. Yes. But the challenge is when they don't have a policy they are now open to learn. And they don't see what they are learning.

So then it becomes a question of to give somebody, you know, they have to earn it. They have to deserve it. They have to appreciate that they are doing something to deserve that. That's where we have targeted groups that are doing significant benefit to the country.

That's giving a positive contribution.

In a significant way, in a way. We all think we are doing positive contribution when we get up and we do something, we sell something or we educate a friend or whatever, we are doing something good, but we are talking about something significant.

Like organ donor can save eight lives.Okay. Yeah. Every time you donate blood, you can save three lives. A young parent is bringing the future to the country. You know, bringing up a new child, a baby and a new child costs a lot of money. It takes a lot of effort, a change of life. So they are contributing to society? Yes, athletes. Of course, they contribute not only in health wellness, but unity. Yes. Yeah. The best thing to unite a country is when they are cheering for a sportsman.

So all of these are impact, and these are the groups that we have identified in the first round.

I see. So what are the benefits? This group will get from social takaful. Okay.

We prioritize groups that contribute to the national good but are often under protected. So I mentioned the groups we already, blood and organ donors, national and state athletes, young parents, university students.

These groups are generally more receptive to education and understand value.

That's why they did. They're doing what they did. They're doing, making them ideal starting points for sustainable inclusion.

So what we provide to them is basic life insurance cover okay. Whether it's 20,000. Whether it's 30,000. Some insurance to get them in the journey of getting protection. So when they have a policy they are interested. They are curious about what they have got. So they are open to education okay. And from that process they get to realize how simple insurance is. The new insurance, the future insurance that I talk about, is not complicated products, but it's simple to understand and how affordable it is because it is true. Digital channel. No expensive distribution. So from there they can see. At the same time, they start to realize is 20,000 enough for me? And if it's not the up, further purchases are very simple, just a tick box and stuff like that. So the whole process is very smooth and it's a seamless process. And not only, higher protection can be purchased, but also supplementary cover. on top of that.

Amazing. So, in a way, right now, previously, if they don't have insurance, they don't want to learn about it, but right now they will have insurance and they will have like, what do I have? So they would want to know more about it. And it does create the incentive for them to learn, right? Amazing. Acme Tech health screening scores are used to determine eligibility and pricing of your insurance products. Could you tell us more about that?

Traditional underwriting focuses on what went wrong in the past.

Okay. What health issues that person had. We focus on current health efforts. Okay. So measurable behaviors like movement, screening scores and improving trends. This shift insurance from being punitive to motivational. Okay, now what you have done wrong. But what are you doing right? To improve your health. Encouraging better habits while still managing risk. So at scale, this approach can actually improve national health outcomes because the focus is what different things you can do in small steps that are proven to make a difference in your health.

So from the health score I have, my health score is at the moment 87. It's okay, I'm satisfied I'm 60 next month. So it's not a bad score, but I want to touch 90. The highest I've seen is 92. So I'm trying to see whether I can get over 90. So that's the challenge for me. That's the motivation. So daily I try to do some small steps to get to a health score of 90.

Okay. So that is the behavior we hope to create. It won't be with everybody, but hopefully the early starters will join in the journey and speak about it. Okay. And if they are successful, they'll speak about it with passion and hopefully inspire another person. Yes. And that's then it'll go.

For I think it can give a direction as well as where we are at, knowing like what is our score at the moment? It will give us direction. What are the actions that we need to take? Maintain or maybe reduce or remove some?

Correct. You can imagine, you know, parents talking about young children and saying what's your score exactly? Then the young child turned around, you know, papa or mommy? What's your head score?

Yes, I can see that happening, actually. Okay. Mr. Ravinder, could you explain to us a bit more about the progressive society and.

What's unique about the SEHATI app? It gives you a health score. The health score is a motivation if you're doing well and at the same time it's a first yellow flag. If something is going wrong, it's not a red flag. Normally, the red flag will be when you have a heart attack or your diagnosis for stage second stage cancer. It's a bit late. Identifying this early is good, but still you already had. You already had this challenge. We better warning if there was a health score, for example, that shows your health is deteriorating or the score has gone down below 60 or below 40. So this is something I've always wanted to be involved with for over ten years or 15 years.

And an early warning system. An earlier warning system. So that's where I think this health score in the app is incredible. How you get hold of it is you go to the app, you, you, you download the app and you the process because it records medical details. Obviously the sign up at the first stage is a little bit long, but it's worth it. You only need to do it once and there are many questions. Then you can purchase the screening, which is subsidized. It's 105 ringgit, but if you are an active contributor to the purchaser and between the ages of 40 to 59, it's free.

What it involves is two visits to the GP When you visit a GP? Yes, he will have. He or she will have some questions for you. You can also address any type of issues you have at the same time, so it's worth it. Okay, if you've had a back ache or you're not sleeping well or you're not sure about this, you can ask as many questions as you want.

So it's very good. And we all have issues that we think is not serious enough to to go and see a GP, but it's something that is a consensus. Yeah. So this is the same time you can address all of it because the atmosphere is right when it starts to question you about your family history, how you feel about this and stuff like that. So you go through the whole process. You will do some screening, blood tests, urine tests, stuff like that. And then when the results are out, you can go again and the doctor will share the results with you. And as soon as everything goes onto the app, you will get this magic health score.

Okay. You know how important report cards are in development of children?

It shows progress. So don't worry where you start with what score you start with. But also your actions after that. Okay. I'm lucky. I have a health score of 87. So I'm satisfied. Obviously with 87 being 60 or almost 60.

But of course I want to get higher. But when I do the screening every year and if something is developing, the the score will draw and then it addresses this, then I will need to do something. So it's so good. So I recommend this is something incredible that all Malaysians should go into. It's so easy to do because you can do the booking of the GP from the app. So you can choose the GP that's closest to your home or to your work, so it's not inconvenient. It can be your current GP as well and it will enhance the relationship with your own GP because they not only address what illnesses you have, but they look holistically, holistically, your whole health, your family history, things like that questions that they will normally ask you when you go for when you have a sore throat or something and you go and see them, and even if you start asking all these questions, you think they are intruding? Yes. Okay, so you might not feel comfortable, but here when you go to this environment, it gives the GP a chance to build a relationship with you.

So if you just imagine if the GP got all this information and they start to fill up their record on you and you have any issue, you'll go back to them.

So for me, this is the way GP can start to move from treating illness to treating wellness. Everybody will have an issue. They're not so sure how to eat, whether they're eating right. You know, drinking enough in managing stress, not sleeping well. So all these issues, we start to now talk about it.

And can monitor as well whether we are doing everything is in the right direction.

So that's the way we should go. And I hope this will become more popular.

And because the tool is there.

So now Malaysia is actually heading towards an aging population. What are factors that we should consider insurers and policymakers can take into account to provide coverage for the larger mass?

Yes, we must move away from age based exclusions and towards functional health and affordability.

This includes simpler products, shorter term protection blocks, and partnership with public health care. The goal is dignity and protection. Not perfect underwriting. So we know senior citizens are more likely to have a health issue. So the only way to cover this group, and not just this group, but also okay use is to have a large database. So not just selling individual policies but in communities. I hope in the near future, just like what the government is doing for it, where there is a base product for hopefully a large population size, I hope there's one for protection as well. Where the whole of Malaysia has 20,000 or 30,000. Some insurance. Okay. If you can afford it, you pay. Maybe if you are the T20, you pay a little bit more. Okay. Because you can. So on the other extreme, those who really can't afford it are subsidized. They either pay partly or totally subsidized. That every Malaysian has a small cover. And obviously it needs to be takaful.

And because of the social aspects of it, it would. A social takaful program is the ideal. It will not be so expensive. And trust me, if multiple times easier to set up that match it. So it can be done.

Yes, it can be done.

It can be done.

Because it is a different thing. It's a medical plan so there's the exclusions. What is actually covered under the medical treatment. But the other is critical.

Life is social. It can be a critical illness too. But the first one should be life cover, you know. You know, we talked about senior citizens before. For me, city citizens are jewels in the country because they have contributed many years, you know, 60 years, 70 years to the nation.

Not only their immediate family members, their friends, but also to society. So we should treat them well.

I appreciate them, appreciate them.

And a small cover. It's a small. Thank you. Yes. Give them a better send off. And also make the last journey a little bit more pleasant.

I think that can make all the difference in the world.

It's not difficult. It's just need the desire and somebody to champion this.

Maybe you can be the first one to do that.

I'm certainly playing my part.

Okay. okay, let's circle back to another fundamental problem in the system. People are currently encouraged more to ensure their health and take care of it. What do you think that should be done to reverse the narrative?

Yes, this is a pet topic for me. We should stop rewarding illness and start rewarding effort. That means premium incentives, coverage, access and public messaging that values movement, prevention, and discipline just as much as treatment. Insurance will support good choices, not replace them. Their situation where somebody has not taken care of their health, smoke excessively, drink excessively, and hope that insurance will be the solution. That should not happen.

But it's happening.

We should. I mean, there is also talk now of covering preexisting pre-existing illness. Yeah. Now, for me, this is a sensitive topic. If pre-existing because you have smoked 40 cigarettes a day for 20 years, should we still cover them? Because if we do, we are just encouraging people to say it's okay. Yes, I will still be covered later on. So we should be strong on this and say you are expected to do certain things. If you are smoking then maybe your access is much higher. You should pay more. to prevent this from becoming a natural thing, and those who go out of their way with preventive care, do screenings regularly, are moving, taking part in things, watching their diet, watching what they eat. Cutting out sugar. They should be rewarded.

Okay. Maybe lower access because they are doing their part. So not enough is being done on this. Perhaps it will come to the next stage. But it is so important that we work on mechanisms that will reduce.

The cost for treating lifestyle diseases. It's so important to happen.

That's very true. So as you're talking about preventive healthcare in managing long term medical costs, how do initiatives such as PERKESO SEHATI help with this?

Preventive healthcare is the only sustainable solution. Apps like SEHATI empower individuals to own their health data. All your screening results, if done through the GP in the system, is in your app.

So we can see.

So you can see it. So just imagine 20 years down the line when you have some issues, they can actually track back all your screening results.

And we can see it now on the app.

Yes. If you do it through the app and you blue your booking, the results are put in the app. So it's become so powerful because now we have a screening results. The next day we lost the paper.

Okay. So this is is that once you have the health data it tracks your progress and you can do early intervention. Okay.

So when insurers, employers and policymakers aligned around prevention course, it comes down naturally.

Okay. So organizations like this and efforts to make this happen need to be shared. Published and supported.

Everyone plays a role in this to make this happen.

Yes. So that's why I encourage those who I mean many people know what are the right things to do. They read it or they see it. But not everybody does it. So those who do it need to talk about it multiple times, because every time you do, you inspire somebody else. And you make it feel that it's not too difficult. That step is not too difficult. Yeah. That's why we you know, we do quite a lot of things from not only from our own, daily life, but also on hobbies and stuff that we have and community projects that I think we're going to talk about soon as well.

Yes, exactly. It's coming up, in a way like it can motivate other people, like, see if he can do it.

I can do it. So I think it will be the starting point on that. What key message would be the most important for Malaysians regarding health insurance and personal responsibility?

Yes. For me, take care of your health and protect your family early and make informed decisions before a crisis forces your hand. Those who do this take care of their health and ensure enough protection are actually superheroes. Okay, because you are doing things today for the future. Good. And not only for yourself. You know, if you take care of your health, you are actually also keeping one bit less. Yes, in a hospital. Giving others a chance to go when they need it. So really, this group of people should really be recognised and treated as ambassadors for the good of the nation.

Yes, I think looking at the bigger picture of everything that we do, can we give a more powerful significance to it? Yes. Okay. Now moving on to a lighter note. Beyond a career in insurance, I know you are a professional tower running athlete.

Probably the source of your youth. Why tower running?.

Tower running changed my life. Why? Because it's what I like. Simple things. It's a simple exercise, just walking. Yet it's brutal. When you walk against gravity, you feel it? Yeah. So something simple but can push you and is accessible. There's stairs everywhere. Yeah. One stair, one step at a time. There are no shortcuts. Once you are in the stairs, there is no lift at the stairs, so you just walk up. It keeps me disciplined, mentally sharp and grounded. It's probably my best anti-aging strategy that I can recommend.

Okay. There's something that actually everyone can go for because there's condominiums. Mostly, staying in condominiums can just climb up the stair before when come back after work, instead of going back straight on. The lift can just walk up.

And they're all in public areas. Just last Sunday we had a three hour challenge, about 20 of us. We climbed the Putrajaya steps. These steps are in the gardens opposite the Prime Minister's office. There are 119 steps. We walked up and down for three hours. Three hours from 7 a.m. to 10 a.m.. two days ago. So it's, both a challenge, but the weather was perfect, so it was really good.

Well, something that I need to try as well. Soon. Okay. If anyone is interested in tower running, how can they get started?

The first thing is to start by taking the stairs instead of the lift or escalator. That's the first thing. Every time you see stairs, if you see a lift. Look and see where the stairs are. It's your best investment for your health. Okay. Okay. Obviously, if you're in a rush and you're late, that's fine. And you know, if you're not in the best of health on that day, you know, if you, then fine. Take the lift. But otherwise, make it a habit to choose stairs. And if you are in the Klang Valley.

Join us every Saturday, 5:30 to 7:00 at MBPJ. We've been doing this for 122 consecutive weeks. And over 1000 have completed 100 floors. Most never thought they could. So just show up and we'll take care of the rest. We walk even though we say it's our running because it's sexier to say it's our running. That's our walking. But we walk.

Even the world champion, who is a Malaysian, when he wins, when he breaks the record at different buildings, he walks, but he walks fast and he takes two steps. But that's an athlete at the highest level for the rest, including myself. I walk single steps and I use the rail so it becomes a total body workout. Okay. And in Menara MBPJ, the stairs are icons.

And there's a lift on every floor, so nothing to worry. The moment you feel. No, I didn't have a good sleep. I'm not really up to it. So no need to worry.

Okay. Definitely will be joining soon on this. Okay. Thank you so much, Mr. Ravinder, for your insights today. It's very inspiring to have you with us, and we hope our viewers learn something about health insurance and maybe get started with Tower running today. Stay tuned for more upcoming episodes in our series InsuredSpeaks. Thank you.